Help pointing

Soonerhead

Soonerhead

Member
Ok, you guys are the experts and this female GSP is my first GSP but I'm doing it all myself. I have no money to spend on a professional trainer so I'd like to know what or how you guys do it. Of course she'll point and I can hide a wing feather in the yard or the woods and she will find it every time. I guess thats just natural. What I'd like some advice from you guys on is, how do I get her to realize she MUST hold a point even when I'm not right there? I do the wing on a fishin' pole thing and I can control what she does, a little, but what do I do to get her to hold that point instead of rushing in?She is VERY smart and catches on really fast and is very eager to please. I just want to help her be the best gun dog she can be. Oh, and she's 8 months old right now, if that helps. Anyway, thanks in advance ya'll,

Stacy

and Freckles
 
Teach the whoa command, and use it. At some point you are going to need access to a lot of qild birds, or used pen raised birds to finish the deal.
 
I agree teach the dog whoa and get her on some pigeons or pen raised quail, I would stop with the wing thing, and get her on some live prey.

Rod
 
Gotcha! Also, I wanna say thank you. I got her out into some wild birds a few weeks ago on my Kansas trip, and she found birds, they were flushing wild so she really never got a chance to point. So is what ya'll are saying is to get a live bird, and do I cage it, or tie it down some how and then make the dog hold the point until she figures it out?
 
Sounds like whoa needs to be "mastered" first...she knows it, but still has too much puppy in her too hold...I guess thats where I come in, to teach her and break her of her bad puppy habits, cause MAN, she gets excited!
 
My experience when I was in your position a couple of years ago. I used the wing and pigeons but the dog learned that he could jump in and get the bird so be carefull. So I started using chukar and I was not disabling them. My goal was for the bird to flush if the dog jumped. He learned quick on his own to hold the point if he wanted the bird. I paid some money to a trainer for couple of sessions and his recommendation to me was always "get the dog on birds, Lots of birds and he will figure it out" He was right.
 
When you said, "My goal was for the bird to flush if the dog jumped. He learned quick on his own to hold the point if he wanted the bird," the, if he wanted the bird part is what I don't understand, by that, did you mean you shooting the bird was the reward, or during training, did you give him a "reward" of some kind when he held the point?
 
Soonerhead said:
When you said, "My goal was for the bird to flush if the dog jumped. He learned quick on his own to hold the point if he wanted the bird," the, if he wanted the bird part is what I don't understand, by that, did you mean you shooting the bird was the reward, or during training, did you give him a "reward" of some kind when he held the point?
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If he pointed and held it until I flushed and shot it. He got to retrieve it.
 
blueweim said:
"get the dog on birds, Lots of birds and he will figure it out" He was right.
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That is it.

Your dog is young and learning the more birds the better. I have used a 2 liter pop bottle tied to a pigeon leg with 15 feet of kit string. You can reuse the birds the birds can fly away and help gets the dog birdy.
Stay away from trees eles the birds get tangled up
After awhile start shooting the birds.
The wing on a stick is a sight point thing you are way past that and need the nose to start working.
 
SOONER- I will try to shed some light on this for you. You seem like you have been trying pretty hard and what you have done thus far has been good. It sounds like your dog is doing quite well also. If you don't have a check cord you need to buy one or make one. Once you have done this work the dog in the yard with the whoa command just to make sure she knows what is expected of her when she hears the word. Once she is doing well with her yard training and such you can move to live birds. You need to place some live birds out for her and while keeping ahold of the check cord work her in on the bird from the down wind side. Once you notice that she smells the bird and is at a reasonable distance you can now whoa her. Once you whoa her don't allow her to creep even the slightest bit, if she does place her back where you originally gave the command. With some work she will get the idea and start to hold before you even give the command. Only after she is holding would I suggest shooting. Make sure that you are the one flushing the bird every time and mearly using her to locate and then retrieve the bird. You need for her to make the corrolation that she is to point the bird while you flush/shoot the bird and then she retrieves it. A couple of other things that will also help reinforce this is to not shoot at birds that she doesn't point. Wild flushing birds that are shot will make a pointer creep and or not do its job completelly. Also don't use the wing and string anymore she is too old. Keep it fun and I am sure she will turn out nicelly for you good luck.
 
HUNTIN4FUN said:
SOONER- I will try to shed some light on this for you. You seem like you have been trying pretty hard and what you have done thus far has been good. It sounds like your dog is doing quite well also. If you don't have a check cord you need to buy one or make one. Once you have done this work the dog in the yard with the whoa command just to make sure she knows what is expected of her when she hears the word. Once she is doing well with her yard training and such you can move to live birds. You need to place some live birds out for her and while keeping ahold of the check cord work her in on the bird from the down wind side. Once you notice that she smells the bird and is at a reasonable distance you can now whoa her. Once you whoa her don't allow her to creep even the slightest bit, if she does place her back where you originally gave the command. With some work she will get the idea and start to hold before you even give the command. Only after she is holding would I suggest shooting. Make sure that you are the one flushing the bird every time and mearly using her to locate and then retrieve the bird. You need for her to make the corrolation that she is to point the bird while you flush/shoot the bird and then she retrieves it. A couple of other things that will also help reinforce this is to not shoot at birds that she doesn't point. Wild flushing birds that are shot will make a pointer creep and or not do its job completelly. Also don't use the wing and string anymore she is too old. Keep it fun and I am sure she will turn out nicelly for you good luck.
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i agree. maybe try the barrel or a bench:cheers:
 
Beagle- that is good advice too. I would also recommend the whoa stake as it tends to be a bit easier for the novice trainer. None the less repetition is what it takes to make a good dog and with out it you will only have an average dog. Exposure to birds should be your primary focus at this time and let the dog gain experience/confidence through repeated bird exposure.
 
blueweim said:
I paid some money to a trainer for couple of sessions and his recommendation to me was always "get the dog on birds, Lots of birds and he will figure it out" He was right.
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That is sound advice. Wild birds (but even pen raised if you have to) will teach the dog most of what it needs.


Sooner,

How old is this dog and what training, whether obedience or bird work has been done up to this point?

Without knowing how old the dog is and what has been done so far, it's kind of hard to steer you in the right direction.
 
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Soonerhead said:
When you said, "My goal was for the bird to flush if the dog jumped. He learned quick on his own to hold the point if he wanted the bird," the, if he wanted the bird part is what I don't understand, by that, did you mean you shooting the bird was the reward, or during training, did you give him a "reward" of some kind when he held the point?
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The cardinal rule for keeping a pointing dog steady is to never.. never... shoot a bird where the dog intentionally caused the flush. If you want to keep them steady or are trying to steady them up, always remember this. If you are hunting with others make sure they know what your rules are as well. It might be best to hunt the dog alone for a period of time until the dog learns what's expected of it.

When the dog performs correctly, (Points bird and holds) then flush the bird and shoot it. Wild flushes (not caused by the dog) are fair game, however, when you are in the early stages of steadying a dog it might be best to refrain from this as well. Use your best judgment is what I say.

One more thing I would like to mention about approaching a dog on point. YOu may already know this but... To help your dog stay steady always approach your dog from the side or preferably from the front of him working in to him. If he can see you approaching from the front he is more apt to keep his focus and hold his point. DON'T come in from behind him.
 
Holy smokes!!! I cannot thank you enough, all of you. Please, please, keep the tips comin'! I am definitely gonna use them.
 
BirdShooter...look in the original post if you would...There should be everything about her in there. Let me know if you need more. Thanks again,
Stacy
 
Soonerhead said:
BirdShooter...look in the original post if you would...There should be everything about her in there. Let me know if you need more. Thanks again,
Stacy
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Ok, sorry I missed that she is 8 months old. Other than hiding a wing and playing with a wing on a string I didn't see much else on formal training. I would throw the wing on a string away and forget about using it again. It's one thing to use it on an 8 week old puppy to see how much pointing instinct they have. Use it too often and you run the risk of teaching sight pointing. Why create habits you don't want only to have to undo them later. Taking her hunting is good and in her first season it is not too terribly important that she have a lot of formal bird training. At this stage you are trying to build desire and letting her have as much bird exposure as possible her first year is important in the overall picture. Let her learn how to use her nose and follow scent. If she points a bird and holds it (even briefly) then shoot it. IF she bumps a bird by riding in on them, DON'T shoot, simple as that.

As was mentioned, when you are not hunting you should be starting to train for Whoa. This will be your single most important command with a pointing dog. This command will allow you to stop the dog at any moment. This could be used to allow you to catch up or if the dog decides to give chase or moves once on point, you can then stop the dog. You will want to have this command down pat and the dog must understand what's expected when the dog is given the command, no if's and's or buts about it, the dog must have this command ingrained in their head and comply EVERY TIME. Whoa is really not that hard of a command to teach and once learned it can easily be overlayed for corrections using an e-collar.

That's what I would be doing at this point with an 8 month old pup. You could also work on any yard work (obedience) that you feel you need. Next summer if you feel that you want your dog steady to a certain level, whether steady to shot and or wing then you can cross that bridge when you get there.

P.S. See if you can find some books/videos on pointing dog training. A good one that I can recommend that takes you through the whole process in detail is the video series by Perfection kennels. Perfect/Start and Perfect/Finish. Both excellent and worth every penny. You might be able to find someone who is selling theirs on ebay or some of the other gun dog forums, so look around if your interested and want to save a little money.
 
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Got it! Again, thank you guys sooo much. I'm thinking I will take it real slow and one thing at a time with no gray areas...just keep it black and white. I'm hoping Santa brings me a nice e-collar...maybe a used one from training raindeer, lol. Also, if you don't mind, are there any videos that you guys used personally? Thanks again ya'll,

Stacy

and Freckles
 
No need for a pro trainer but I might suggest a good book or video.

Some key points can be messed up, and am afraid that some of the advice given you so far might head you down the wrong road.

Whoa--if you use that--is used to get a dog to stop. Some pro's would say it has nothing to do with birds at all. You don't want to use whoa to be telling the dog when it should establish point--the birds need to do that.

The other major style of training pointing dogs uses a pinch collar and no verbal commands. That's safer for a newbie IMO but if you get the concept that birds tell your dog when to stop and point--you don't--then either works.
 
Nothing wrong with teaching whoa in conjuction with pointing

I've never seen a pro, i.e. handler of horseback shooting dogs or all age dogs who DIDN'T use the whoa command to re-enforce the point in young dogs. The issue is not the initial point, it's the holding of the point in question, until the handler flush. There is also the stop to flush occurances, and the birds leaving early, both of which tend to take the young eager dog with them. Whoa command is essential in both cases. Ideally you want to stop this development before it gets started. Whoa, learned well and early, will be the major tool for advanced training, and I can think of several instances where it might even save a dog's life! If a dog has no stop, ( initial instinct to point), you have a whole set of other issues, I have actually seen point taught, but the process is way beyond me, fortunately extremely rare with todays breeding. Don't be afraid to teach whoa.
 
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