E-Collar at 7 months??

F

FishinFreaks

New member
Wondering if my 7 month old GSP is too young for an e-collar. Around the house, she's very obedient. But on occasion, when I let her out, she runs.

Part of her personality is that she is very timid when scolded. I have never hit her. She's naturally too timid.

But when she runs, she knows I'm mad, and she won't come back near me. So I'm wondering if a slight nick on an e-collar will give me some control when she's at a distance.

I'm at a loss. Fortunately I live in a neighborhood with next to no traffic. My neighbors love dogs. But I need to get this figured out.

This is only around the house. She's an awesome listener in the field.

What say you?
 
Dogs can sense in your voice as a pack leader when you are upset. Tone it down a notch or two, but always give lots of praise praise when she does come.

Two things, based on your description of “Naturally Timid” I would try a few other methods first. If you have an ecollar with a “tone button” you can attempt to give the command come and at the same time you press the tone button. Use this method in the house first so the dog understands when the collar beeps it means come. Progress to yard work if the dog retrieves, you can use the tone for recall. A whistle is another option, but I personally cannot stand a whistle.

I personally would not use the ecollar nick.
 
Not much percentage in punishing a pup for being a pup. These are things she will outgrow, save your voice and save your money, you'll live longer and with less stress and so will your dog. There is so much ground work you would need to do with a dog such as you describe before you should even think of using electroshock to fix this problem, the dog will be in the process of outgrowing the behavior before you get there with the shock. Lighten up. Sounds like she is basically a good dog given now and then to the mirth of youthful exuberance.
 
All I used Hank's e-collar for at that age was instilling the return command via tone button. Depending on which collar I'm using today, I still primarily use the tone and/or vibrate function. I only use momentary nick for avoidance training.
 
oldandnew said:
Not much percentage in punishing a pup for being a pup. These are things she will outgrow, save your voice and save your money, you'll live longer and with less stress and so will your dog. There is so much ground work you would need to do with a dog such as you describe before you should even think of using electroshock to fix this problem, the dog will be in the process of outgrowing the behavior before you get there with the shock. Lighten up. Sounds like she is basically a good dog given now and then to the mirth of youthful exuberance.
Click to expand...

+100!!!

Hopefully she will grow out of it. However, I had the same problem with my dog when she was a puppy. Luckily we had a fenced back yard. You need to start with yard work. Put her on a check cord and tell her to "come" or "hear". Pull her into you so she learns what you want. Then make sure and give her a treat. Puppys are suckers for treats. However, you need to make sure she's getting plenty of opportunity to play and run like a puppy is supposed to do as well. If she doesn't, no matter how many treats you offer the desire to play will win over the desire for a few treats. The e-collar isn't designed to be used the way you want to use it. It should only be incorporated into an entire training program, and then only after the yard work foundation has been set. Dont start too soon, and let the puppy be a puppy.
 
I agree with most of the previous posts. You must make sure that she knows the come command. I'd work in a controlled environment using the "Come" command until she has it down pat. Unlike another poster, I like using a whistle. Easier for the dog to hear than your voice. I train all my dogs with whistle commands.

Back to your original question and problem. When my Brittany was a pup she was great at coming on voice command or the whistle. Then at about 5 months she decided she didn't need to listen any more. After much thought, and I think a post on this site, I decided to correct her with the e-collar. So I set the collar at a low stimulation and took her to the field. The first time she refused to come on both voice and whistle commands I gave her a nick. That's all it took. Problem solved! Never had another problem with her again. But I will warn anyone using an e-collar on a young dog, BE CAREFUL, and go slow. It could be real easy to screw up a dog.
 
She is already excellent on the "come" command. She's great in the yard as well. If I'm working around the yard or back on the pond working on the ice rink, she sticks around. She comes everytime I call. Every time.

There are just the occasions where when we let her out to do her duty, that she gets it in her mind that she wants to take a run. It's these moments that I need to find a way to correct.

It's like the ears turn off, and she's gone.

I totally get not wanting to ruin her with the e-collar. That's why I'm even posing the question. It's just freaky when she does take off. It might only happen 1 out 40-50 times that we let her out. I hate walking out in the cold everytime she needs to go out (she's got bladder issues and goes twice as much or more than the average dog - vet says we have to wait for the first heat cycle to get it cleared up) to put her on the chain.

Still not sure what I want to do.

Thanks for all the input, guys. Any more ideas...keep 'em coming!
 
If she is that good at coming 99% of the time she obviously knows the command. At 7 months I would not be afraid to use an e-collar for those times she decides not to listen. Give her just enough stimulation to get her attention. Start on the lowest setting and gradually increase. I'll bet that a couple of nicks and she will realize that she can't get by with ignoring you. Just go easy and give her a lot of praise when she comes.
 
What they ^ said.

And, once she learns the e-collar, she may never, ever, do it again...cuz she understands that once the collar is on, she must be on her best behavior.

Of my dogs, Young Bert had the greatest zest for new adventures, but his behavior was conspicuously improved when I put the collar on. Rarely had to use it, but he had worked out the intricacies of electronic communication.

:)
 
FnF, Bladder issues; Reoccurring bladder infection? Ask your vet about using a feminine hygiene product and a syringe.:o Mine laughed at me and suggested something else. I can't recall , vinegar and water, iodine I don't remember. Anyway it cleared it up.
Good luck with the training, it'll pass.
 
Sounds like a pup! I would use a check cord extensivly and start collar conditioning. Have a check cord on her EVERY time you have the collar on as you need to be able to enforce come along with the stimulation. Your command has to be enforced otherwise it is not a command. Personnaly I condition to "sit" first as the command is easily enforced and tends to glue the dog to the ground a little allowing you to get a solid "come" nick "come". I feel this allows me to proof the come a little more. With your dog being more or less solid on come you may have a hard time getting a fair (to the dog) correction in.

I hope I explained this in a somewhat understandable way?! Go easy and use only as much stimulation as necessary to change behavior. Beware the behavior change may not be the desired change..... You are in training mode not correction mode.

Good Luck, I got an ear to go pinch.

Steve
 
I am going to agree with most of what you have already read. So for anyone who reads this at a later date.
First thing before a e collar is used is to make certain the dog understand the command given. Which your dog does, as you have stated.
So for others who may come along. An e collar WILL NOT train a dog.

What it will do is give negative reinforcement to some action.
In your case the dog knows the command but for some reason the dog chooses to ignore the command.

I would use the following technique.
State the command. Give the dog a few seconds to respond to the command. If you are ignored. Hit the signal button ( if you e collar has such a feature. And it is something I feel is a great feature) than immediately hit the lowest setting for a nick.
If the dog refuses to come back, increase one level. Repeat the command, allow time for dog to respond, hit tone signal, hit nick

The first time you notice the dog reacting to the nick. Mark that setting, mentally.
You now know the exact setting needed to get the dogs attention.
Once you have this all figured out.
Allow dog outside. Call dog. Dog ignores you. Hit the tone, than the nick. Than give the command in a firm voice.
If needed repeat the nick.

The objective is to get the dog to understand. A command has been given. The dog knows the command. A tone is given, telling the dog. "final warning" follow the command or next comes the nick.

As the dog becomes aware of the tone, you will be able to discontinue the nick. You will notice all that is needed is the tone, and the dog will react.

Once again I would like to repeat. (not to you but to others who are not aware of how to use a e collar)
A e collar will not teach a dog a command. It will only show a negative reinforcement to some sort of action. The goal is to teach the dog that what ever it is doing is not what is to be done.....but if the dog does not know the command in the first place. The dog training process will be seriously damaged.

So to your original question. Is a seven month old dog to young for an e collar.
My answer is. Is a sixteen year old boy old enough to drive a car???..it depends on how mature the boy is.

It depends on how much the 7 month old pup knows, in regards to commands.
 
Live2Hunt said:
I am going to agree with most of what you have already read. So for anyone who reads this at a later date.
First thing before a e collar is used is to make certain the dog understand the command given. Which your dog does, as you have stated.
So for others who may come along. An e collar WILL NOT train a dog.

What it will do is give negative reinforcement to some action.
In your case the dog knows the command but for some reason the dog chooses to ignore the command.

I would use the following technique.
State the command. Give the dog a few seconds to respond to the command. If you are ignored. Hit the signal button ( if you e collar has such a feature. And it is something I feel is a great feature) than immediately hit the lowest setting for a nick.
If the dog refuses to come back, increase one level. Repeat the command, allow time for dog to respond, hit tone signal, hit nick

The first time you notice the dog reacting to the nick. Mark that setting, mentally.
You now know the exact setting needed to get the dogs attention.
Once you have this all figured out.
Allow dog outside. Call dog. Dog ignores you. Hit the tone, than the nick. Than give the command in a firm voice.
If needed repeat the nick.

The objective is to get the dog to understand. A command has been given. The dog knows the command. A tone is given, telling the dog. "final warning" follow the command or next comes the nick.

As the dog becomes aware of the tone, you will be able to discontinue the nick. You will notice all that is needed is the tone, and the dog will react.

Once again I would like to repeat. (not to you but to others who are not aware of how to use a e collar)
A e collar will not teach a dog a command. It will only show a negative reinforcement to some sort of action. The goal is to teach the dog that what ever it is doing is not what is to be done.....but if the dog does not know the command in the first place. The dog training process will be seriously damaged.

So to your original question. Is a seven month old dog to young for an e collar.
My answer is. Is a sixteen year old boy old enough to drive a car???..it depends on how mature the boy is.

It depends on how much the 7 month old pup knows, in regards to commands.
Click to expand...

I agree with most everything you've said except I disagree with the use of the tone function. I think it is more important to give very clear commands and require complete compliance. To give a command followed with a warning and than applying pressure is a bit unclear. I say give the command and when noncompliance or lazy compliance happens apply stimulation. Dog will soon learn that commands are to be followed period. I believe a clear concise approach with no gray areas are most fair to the dog. Just my feelings and please do not be offended.

I have a collar with tone function that I use for crude handling while hunting upland. One beep = turn right, two beeps = turn left, multiple beeps (trilling?) tells dog to tighten up. These commands were pretty easy to teach (dog already had strong handling skills) and really allow me to hunt queitly. Even if you could use an e collar at hunt tests the beeps would not allow enough control for a pass but they will get a dog into "better cover".
 
Gatzby said:
I agree with most everything you've said except I disagree with the use of the tone function. I think it is more important to give very clear commands and require complete compliance. To give a command followed with a warning and than applying pressure is a bit unclear. I say give the command and when noncompliance or lazy compliance happens apply stimulation. Dog will soon learn that commands are to be followed period. I believe a clear concise approach with no gray areas are most fair to the dog. Just my feelings and please do not be offended.
Click to expand...

Not offended at all. Please allow myself to try to clear something up. I agree a dog needs to know a command has been given and the Alpha needs to be obeyed.
What I was attempted to explain about the warning tone is this.

When first training a dog. The tone, followed by the nick. The two happen at almost the same instant.
Eventually I get my dog to the point where he hears the tone, he knows to check back with me.
I do not mean the dog comes back to me, but rather looks at me. I will then use a hand signal. The hand signal may mean, change of direction, range further out, whoa, or come.
My point being, the nick has enforced into the dog the tone means "change of current plan" look for guidance. But that only happens after the dog has been nicked instantly after the tone. When actually training the dog, I think the handler can see the dog start to respond only to the tone, even before my finger moves from the tone button to the nick button.

That is the break through with the dog I am looking for.

I feel the human voice is one of the worst things a pheasant can hear. I do not like to make any voice noise while in the actual hunt. Commands to a dog or chit chat with a hunting partner. That is just me.

I can understand how your beeps can be used effectively to have the dog change direction. I think we have a similar end desire/effect for a dog that has been e collar trained.:cheers:
 
Live2Hunt said:
Not offended at all. Please allow myself to try to clear something up. I agree a dog needs to know a command has been given and the Alpha needs to be obeyed.
What I was attempted to explain about the warning tone is this.

When first training a dog. The tone, followed by the nick. The two happen at almost the same instant.
Eventually I get my dog to the point where he hears the tone, he knows to check back with me.
I do not mean the dog comes back to me, but rather looks at me. I will then use a hand signal. The hand signal may mean, change of direction, range further out, whoa, or come.
My point being, the nick has enforced into the dog the tone means "change of current plan" look for guidance. But that only happens after the dog has been nicked instantly after the tone. When actually training the dog, I think the handler can see the dog start to respond only to the tone, even before my finger moves from the tone button to the nick button.

That is the break through with the dog I am looking for.

I feel the human voice is one of the worst things a pheasant can hear. I do not like to make any voice noise while in the actual hunt. Commands to a dog or chit chat with a hunting partner. That is just me.

I can understand how your beeps can be used effectively to have the dog change direction. I think we have a similar end desire/effect for a dog that has been e collar trained.:cheers:
Click to expand...

Yes! Sounds like our goals are the same and our methods of getting there are rather similar!

Last fall I was hunting with a friend in SD with three dogs on the ground. After awhile buddy says to me "do you hear that"? My reply was hear what? He than pointed out that neither of us had spoken a word to the dogs or each other in about a half hour. It was awesome!

Steve

PS read the book, Inside Of A Dog. Their is a lot of information in this book that any trainer will benifit from. Mostly about the hows, and whys that make dogs behave the way they do.......
 
I'd say use the collar - just don't even think about hammering her with high power. Use Vibrate and if necessary the lowest setting. It will work and help keep her safe.

Chuck
 
Just like to add not to take your dog out the first time and then use the collar the first time you put it on her. Put the collar on and do some fun stuff and get her use to the idea she's going to do something fun everytime you put that collar on. Get her to think the collar is a good thing. Otherwise she is going to end up running the other way everytime you get it out. You already stated she is pretty timid. Go slow. Take at least a week before you even think about using it. If she recognizes a change in your voice and knows when your mad you might want to introduce the whistle to the come command like Zeb says. One nice thing about a whistle is you can't show anger in your command, though I know guys that use it way to much.
 
So here's an update. Thanks for all of the input, by the way. Prior to even starting this thread, I'd had her wearing the uncharged collar for a couple weeks for at least a few hours each day. So I knew she was comfortable with it. But I was still uncertain, as I just didn't want to make a mistake.

Well, last week I got sick for a couple days. She ran off on me a couple times and was even bolder than before, going further and being more brazen as I approached her. My voice was gentler than other days, and I made sure to be bent down towards her as well so that it would be a more welcoming posture. But after those two runs, i was so worn out, I couldn't handle it.

I charged up the collar and put it back on her. Sure enough, the next time I let her out, she took off. I told her "No!" and called her to "Come!" When she did not, I gave her a "NO!" and a nick on #1 with no response. So I turned it up to a 2 and gave a "NO!". She yelped and kept going. I called her to come. She did not. I gave her a "NO!" and a little longer nick. She yelped again. But this time she started coming around. I called, "Good GIRL! GOOD GIRL!!" and she came running.

I had a similar experience the next day. No more running since. She has gone to visit the neighbors when they've been out, but that is a distraction I can take a little longer to work through. I did use the collar today when she had greeted the neighbors for a little while and then was not listening when I called her back. It only took a quick "No!" and a nick on #2 (no yelp any more) and she came back very nicely to abundant praise.

Overall in the yard, now all I need to do is give her a beep, and she comes back. We'll see how she does in the coming weeks. I'm pleased with the experience so far. She does not seem to be emotionally messed up by the experience at all. I'd stop for sure and feel like a loser if that was the case.

Thanks again for all of the input.
 
Sounds as if you have things turned in a favorable direction & I'm glad for you.
 
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